What is a demon?

Here's a fundamental issue we've never really delved into: what is a demon? Now, I don't mean in game terms. Sorcerer's built for nearly any answer to be given. No, I'm really asking, what does the word mean to you? How is a "demon" different from a monster? From a villain? From anything else? For you, for the word to live up to its meaning in any kind of story, what should a demon character be like?
***************

JARED:

Be they slimey, evil n' nasty or otherwise, I think that all demons have a couple basic traits...

Demons have a sense of independence: Whether moving freely amongst humanity or enthralled to a powerful mage, demons retain a sense of self; that they, ultimately, have control over their own actions and that despite any efforts to enslave them, they can never be truly controlled.

Demons are enigmatic: You can never ever be sure what one is thinking. Their demonic natures gives them a unique perspective on events, both mortal and cosmic. They're totally alien and they have their own agendas. Which leads to --

Demons aren't human: They don't have a human morality and most (i would think) don't understand many aspects of humanity. Love, pain, fear...if these are ever experienced, they're experienced through an intellectual filter. If a demon has it's own agenda (see traits 1 & 2), it may very well perform horrible deeds in order to achieve its goals.

Ummm...thank Pletz for getting me subbed to this list. I'm gonna go read the game now. Buh-bye.
***************

RON EDWARDS:

Jared wrote,

>Demons have a sense of independence: ...
>Demons are enigmatic: ...
>Demons aren't human: ...

And I think these are definitely a big part of it. Here are some elements that matter to me, in terms of my reaction to the word:

Demons are inhuman BUT they are also interactive with humans/us - Whatever they are, whatever their agenda is, we are part of it and we matter to them. I've never tuned in well with the idea that they are just inhabitants of some other dimension. (Tanith Lee's Night's Master has a good sequence in it about this.)

Demons are transgressive - their enigmatic agenda, when translated or applied to human terms, ends up breaking HUMAN rules. The slasher-vicious version of this, made famous by the average horror flick, is an unimaginative example of the general principle. More interesting are the suggestions brought up during our discussion of Possessors, and the principles I tried to reach through all the Binding rules: that demons are almost totally powerless unless some person, in some way, agreed to cross an important line.

More! Any and all perspectives welcomed.
***************

RAN:

I can't get away from the idea that demons are somehow "bound" to humans (pardon the expression) -- to human civilization, or perhaps the human unconscious... for example, the very fact that they have needs and desires hints at a connection to human drives. I don't know if I like the idea of demons being drawn directly from the unconscious mind of the sorcerer or some other person, but it's easy to see how an inventive GM could have a Freudian field day with the reverse idea: that demons, somehow ARE the human unconscious, or maybe the creators/inventors of same, perhaps as "back door" into the earthly realm?
*******************

GEORGE:

Okay I've escape from mundane concerns to take a stab at this....

The question of what demons are like goes back to what sort of cosmic structure do they represent. If you say that demons are from hell, does this mean that there are angels as well? Personally coming from an agnostic point of view, I am not too interested in the standard model. At best, I might use a modified version similar to that used by Kult or In Nomine but more than likely not. I think the only part of that I'd use would be "Demons are Hierarchial."

So what does that leave? The Demon as extradimensional traveller? I think the advantage of this angle is that you could actually play this type of thing with more "sensitive" types if you put the right spin on it. (And what is a game if you have no players?) Couldn't a case for Cenobites as demons be made? Or you can do the superstitious masses of the past mistook the demon from being from hell.

A side note on this idea - Can anyone here tell me about the Azrael stories by Asimov. Having read little of his short stories all I know is it's about a demon and probably has a more pro science angle than most demon stories you can find.

I think the only idea that the extradimensional angle yields that I'd use would be the "God is Alien" slant. Whatever the divine prescence is, it does not adhere to any preconcieved model. All we know about what is beyond this limited range of experience is somehow flawed and for us to transgress it we'd cease to be human. Possibly becoming demonic?

Okay here's a bit of free floating knowledge that I can not fully attribute to a source but consider it valid. (Funny how belief is, huh?) The word Demon is derived from the latin Daemon which if I'm not mistaken has something to do with knowldege. I know pretty vague but follow the association please. So if demons are the embodiement of some sort of arcane knowledge hitherto lost to us could they not emerge from The Collective Unconscious? Perhaps demons are just the living essence of tabboo and transgression? What I like of this idea is that you would still be able to work in those occult/esoteric bits which gives the image of the demon its power and its context. Demons should be alluring and scary at the same time. They are paradoxical. They should draw upon our vision of what they are and then go against it.

So there you have it, my forming thoughts on the subject. I am considering reworking some old Kult materials and changing it over since I no longer "play" that game. ( interesting source material, arbitrary mechanics)

And though it is currently unfashionable to site classic horror opposed to the latest gore fest or anne rice vehicle (Don't get me wrong I like some bloody stuff every once in while.) I am thinking of how I can use elements of "The Night of The Demon" ( Tourneur and Lewton's take on Casting the Runes by MR James) and Burn Witch Burn ( Another black and white horror film in which husband discovers his wife is using magic to protect him. Dated but very cool.) to evoke those occult themes I am intrigued by.

Also another source I may use is Kurt Seligmann's History of Magic. It isn't some crusty tome or is it some manner of new age dribble. It's a history and that's all. No spells, no demands to sacrifice goats to Astaroth. Covers from Mesopotamia to the eighteenth century. Has a bibliography that would bust many a bank account if you tried to find the sources. But there is really no need when this book is so readily available. My copy came from QPB and not some specialty store. Wow this turned into an advertisement. Anyhow this is a great book and is devoid of any hype. Plus it has lots of cool woodcuts and iconography. Something to creep out everyone!

Well that's that. Back into the salt mine with me.
*******************

RON EDWARDS:

Lotta good points raised by George. I'll deal with just the one; hope others will spin off the others.

>The word Demon is derived from the latin Daemon which if I'm not mistaken has something to do with knowldege. ... So if demons are the embodiement of some sort of arcane knowledge hitherto lost to us could they not emerge from The Collective Unconscious? Perhaps demons are just the living essence of tabboo and transgression?

I have the charmingly unpleasant idea of a character who has become a sorcerer through the process of Jungian therapy. Anyone read The Manticore by Robertson Davies? Toss a sorcerous spin on that story, and ...

Anyway, this idea of demons personifying the essence of transgression is a big thing for me. Although I'd like for the CHARACTERS to have many ways of explaining and understanding it, and never let on. In the world-stuff presented in the Master Version, I present various ways for the sorcerers themselves to explain it, depending on whether they transgressed vs. death, vs. passion/sex, or vs. sanity. These are what informed the rather pale versions presented in the Apprentice.

A lot of the material I developed while playing Sorcerer at this time did not make it into this section of the rules simply because it was too hard core. I refuse to tell you all (at least, unless you beg) what sort of demons were produced through a Dark Lady orgy; I can't believe I actually made it up in the first place. At one time I even made a rather horrible chart depicting what sort of Humanity loss effects pertained to each "path," and to combinations among them. Wonder where I put that ...?

But see, it wasn't all just for grue and adolescent shock. I wanted my players to put their collective foot down -- true, they were sorcerers, but there were some things they just wouldn't do -- well, what were they??? I wanted to know.

>Kult: interesting source material, arbitrary mechanics

Agreed. I like to browse the sourcebooks for icky details, but I dislike (1) their clunky system and (2) their assumption that the players have nothing better to do then dodge zombies and shoot at them, while the GM leads them by the nose through a pre-arranged scenario.

Finally, those were friggin' fantastic references. I just ordered Seligmann's from amazon.com, which is really a site I ought to avoid more often.
*******************

RAVEN:

>Here's a fundamental issue we've never really delved into: what is a demon? >Now, I don't mean in game terms. Sorcerer's built for nearly any answer to >be given. No, I'm really asking, what does the word mean to you? How is a >"demon" different from a monster? From a villain? From anything else? >For you, for the word to live up to its meaning in any kind of story, what >should a demon character be like?

To me a demon is a creature that is the result of the stored up negative emotions or energies of an individual who has died, or numerous individuals.

Hrm, that's deceptively simple...

Does this mean that demons are the souls of "really bad men(tm)"...nope. Maybe. Probably not. Who knows if there is even a soul. However, if we go from the "Nothing created, Nothing destroyed" principle (and no one smack me, please, I know I'm off in the New Age physics-follies deep end here), then a demon is the result of someone very tortured, very depressed, or very evil dying without resolution to the extreme issues in their lives. They are literally the living manifestations of the "emotions" of a deceased human or humans...the tortured poet, the starving artist, the scorned lover...perhaps twisted in some way since, now dead, the issue cannot be resolved. I'll stray far from stating that they are "energy" in any sense, because I don't see it that way...they are emotion, pure and simple, emphereal and ethereal, without form or existence, they are pure "feeling", something like verbs, perhaps. All action, no substance. All movement, no form. Nothing given description.

They are basically "imprints"...things that can be seen and contacted by those with enough Lore (though, perhaps, what the Lore says they are is wrong). They don't actually come from "another dimension", they come from and exist in this one. So they are both very human *and very alien... No wonder they need to be bound, no wonder they have Needs...

To me, the word means a spirit, an entity of semi-malignant nature. Perhaps not meaningfully malignant (no more than a chipmunk means to be cute), they just happen to be, they may not even actively work to cause pain, harm, suffering or etc. Those are just the effects they produce when they are around...so make no mistake, they are corrupt beings. That's the word I'm looking for...corrupt.

I thought up alot of this after a recent AD&D game wherein my character managed to banish a demon called "Dissonance" as well as after seeing demons everywhere this week...I was incredibly sick with an awful sinus/throat/ear infection and these evil little faces and forms kept popping or drifting out everywhere (hey, now you know where I get all those ideas for artwork Pickman's model, indeed!).

So, they are different from villans in that they are not human characters with human motivations (good or evil), but they are still driven by human emotion. They aren't "monsters" because they are not jumping out of the bushes at folks...they are just sort of drifting in the cosmological background and existing, sort of like a twisted version of the Tao or enlightenment, being without being.

In a story, a demon should seem human as well as utterly alien...they should *almost (but not quite) make sense. Logic should not apply. They appear and disappear, they are there but you can never quite prove it.
***************

RON EDWARDS:

Raven provided an off-beat type of demon definition, almost a form of ghost, really.

>They are literally the living manifestations of the "emotions" of a
>deceased human or humans...the tortured poet, the starving artist, the
>scorned lover...perhaps twisted in some way since, now dead, the issue
>cannot be resolved.

>I'll stray far from stating that they are "energy" in any sense, because I
>don't see it that way...they are emotion, pure and simple, emphereal and
>ethereal, without form or existence, they are pure "feeling", something
>like verbs, perhaps.
>They are basically "imprints"...

Have you checked out Doug Bolden's RPG, Ghost Light? I played it a few months ago, and it's great. Built very much along these lines; of course, in GL, you're PLAYING such a being.

>... That's the word I'm looking for...corrupt.

Could one imagine precisely the same phenomenon for positive emotions? Or if you die with all sorts of sweetness & light going on for you, do you just disappear? (Note! we are not discussing what we, the list-people, really believe; we are working with evocative frames of mind that produce good stories. I figure most of you get that already, just thought it had to be said.)

I confess this "spirit" mode of demonics doesn't do much for me because maybe it explains too much. There's a certain degree of uncertainty I want to feel AS THE GM for Sorcerer; it communicates well to the players as a total lack of "true" information regarding demons. This is speaking strictly personally, as just another Sorc GM, not as game-author-dude person.

So far we've got transgressive demons, Collective Unconscious demons, ghost-type demons ... anything else?
*****************

GAR:

<deactivates the lurking device> Hi all,

I'm Gareth Hanrahan, a 21-year old gamer from Ireland. I've been having a longish debate with Ron Howard over on the Gaming Outpost forums, and now I've stalked him here to prove him wrong on his own mailing list. Mwahahahahaha.

Anyway?

A demon. Depends on the setting. Standard fantasy, AD&D style? Basically big bad extraplanar monsters, the bastard lovechildren of Cthulhu and an orc. Strange and disturbing enough to be major challenges, evil enough to set plots in motion, understandable enough to be hacked to bits in a climactic battle. In Ars Magica, demons would be as close to the medival conception of them as possible - fallen angels, banished to hell, who tempt men away from the path of righteousness. A man of great learning and equal folly may learn certes rhymes and incantations that summon up the Daemons from the pit etc - true names, warding circles, blood sacrifices, sulphur and odd stains, the works.

In modern games, though, we seem far more...well, understanding of our monsters. Vampires aren't just bloodsuckers, they're bloodsuckers cursed with a terrible thirst, which they cannot deny or sate. Similarly, I've seen demons presented in several places as dark mirrors of humanity, our worst features and fears made real. The whole Needs concept in Sorcerer kinda supports this - demons want something from us, they have comprehensible desires.

And the following post arrives as I'm writing:

>Raven provided an off-beat type of demon definition, almost a form of >ghost, really. > >>They are literally the living manifestations of the "emotions" of a >>deceased human or humans...the tortured poet, the starving artist, the >>scorned lover...perhaps twisted in some way since, now dead, the issue >>cannot be resolved. >>I'll stray far from stating that they are "energy" in any sense, because I >>don't see it that way...they are emotion, pure and simple, emphereal and >>ethereal, without form or existence, they are pure "feeling", something >>like verbs, perhaps. >>They are basically "imprints"... > This is very "ghosty". Probably too ghosty for my tastes. Demons should be something from farther...outside.

>>... That's the word I'm looking for...corrupt. > >Could one imagine precisely the same phenomenon for positive emotions? Or >if you die with all sorts of sweetness & light going on for you, do you >just disappear?

Hmm....ok, if I ever run Sorcerer (I'm planning to convert it over to Unknown Armies, or use sorcerers of this kind as adversaries in vampire some day...just call me a gaming magpie...), my demons will be things from somewhere we can't perceive or ever understand. They come from the same directions pain and bitterness come from, and they enjoy seeing and inflicting suffering and agony. They are connoisseurs of the darkest, blackest emotions and feelings of people. Sometimes, they can insinutate themselves into someone's mind and drive them to the dark places, other times, the demons are just there waiting.

To sum up, demons are things from outside that have really bad hobbies. The worst of humanity shares the tastes of demons.

> (Note! we are not discussing what we, the list-people, >really believe; we are working with evocative frames of mind that produce >good stories. I figure most of you get that already, just thought it had >to be said.)

What? This isn't all real? The warding runes I carved on my mouse are for nothing?

>I confess this "spirit" mode of demonics doesn't do much for me because >maybe it explains too much. There's a certain degree of uncertainty I want >to feel AS THE GM for Sorcerer; it communicates well to the players as a >total lack of "true" information regarding demons. This is speaking >strictly personally, as just another Sorc GM, not as game-author-dude person.

Yeah. Players should never know everything, especially about the occult. Demons are notorious liars.

>So far we've got transgressive demons, Collective Unconscious demons, >ghost-type demons ... anything else?

Fluffy bunny demons, demons as aspects of the sorcerer's mind gone awol, demons as aliens...? I vaguely recall a story by someone vaguely famous about some guy in the far far future who got his kicks by vicariously watching people in the past go mad....
****************

RON EDWARDS:

Before anyone sharpens knives ...

Gareth, let me clarify the question you've hopped into. It was, "What does the term 'demon' ACTUALLY MEAN to you, personally?" In other words, not "what can the term mean, or what does it mean across RPGs," but rather a highly personal inquiry. Raven took a real risk in presenting his non-standard view in public ... how 'bout you?

(Although your description of D&D demons as a Lovecraft-orc hybrid is definitely dead-on funny.)
****************

RAVEN:

>>Raven provided an off-beat type of demon definition, almost a >>form of ghost, really. > >This is very "ghosty". Probably too ghosty for my tastes. Demons >should be something from farther...outside.

Hrm...Unfortunately it seems I did not explain it clearly enough, since that's exactly the image I was trying to avoid, that of a "ghost." Alright, I'll try to expand/clarify.

Actually, there are all sorts of unanswered questions in my description...note that I did not say (or did not mean to say) "demons are the remains of dead or dying minds"...nonono...I attempted to say that they were somehow produced as a result of someone dying with an extreme build-up of unresolved emotions and impulses still present in their physical and mental systems.

Perhaps this action by a human summons these creatures from some "other dimension" into ours, perhaps they really are born of the emotional remains (born of, note, not an image of), but I did not think the description implied that they were the "leftovers" of a human soul or mind. I think that takes away from the description and just plain wrongness and otherness of the demon itself.

So, what we have is "Dissonance"...this thing, this alien, otherworldly creature that acts human, but so much so in a warped and twisted way, representing this quality of disharmony...the wrong note. And it exists because some poor musical genius died years after a severe accident left him crippled and unable to produce or create any of the music that floated constantly in his head... Some strange, supernatural force produces this twisted image of musical genius reversed upon the man's death, somehow born of the emotional suffering of an indivudal, and thriving on the sound of car wrecks, death screams, chainsaws and chirping birds scattered. Somehow, that doesn't seem like a ghost to me...imagine a vaguely inhuman, dripping, slime coated body pulling itself from some pitiful hole in the ground somewhere and glaring out at the world with a dark, feral grin, burning eyes and the lack of a song, a dissonance, filling it.

Imagine emotions released from the prison of the biochemical soup in your brain...what, exactly, IS love, hate, sadness, joy, etc? You can't exactly put it in a petri dish and study it, even the chemical and neural interactions that go into creating an emotional response in a human are not the emotion itself ("hydratetracholerozine active in region 552 of the upper cerebral coretex and obdiminal lobe" isn't love...it produces it, but it does not define it (yes, that's completely made-up gobbledygook, just there to prove a point)).

So where do demons exist? Nowhere. Some misty netherhell that is in this world, right under the surface of everyday life, somewhere that doesn't quite exist...ie -- you can't go there, they can't come here (how to you get to somewhere from nowhere at all? How do you get to nowhere from somewhere when every place is a somewhere?). The possibilities are frightening, and much more spooky than "demons are twisted, alien things from some other dimension", which IMO removes too much of the wrongness and arcaneness from them because suddenly they are just "humans in funny suits." It is so much more fun when they are funny things in human suits.

So these things sort of float there, and are occasionally spotted and can be grasped and actually created by a Sorcerer. But do they exist before the Sorcerer undertakes his rituals? Or does the emotional energy, the thoughts and planning and comprehension the Sorcerer puts into their Summoning actually make them real? So they come from nowhere, are not actually summoned from anywhere, but at the same time they somehow exist somewhere ELSE and are brought here.

As I said, the demon is something different. Something human in a small scope, but something utterly alien as well once you get right down and try to define it, try to study it or classify it.

Demons should be "something that can't and shouldn't be."

Admittedly, though, I can't imagine anything much more preverse and unnatural than a cthulu-orc crossbreed ("And you mated with it how?").
*************

GAR:

Oh right. Sorry. Is that why people are supposed to lurk on lists for more than 10 seconds before posting? Oops :-).

> In other words, not >"what can the term mean, or what does it mean across RPGs," but rather a >highly personal inquiry. Raven took a real risk in presenting his >non-standard view in public ... how 'bout you?

You mean, what is the first concept that jumps into my mind when someone says "demon?" What's the essential meaning of the word for me?

Demons are the dark drives in the back of your head that you won't admit are part of you. I have this vision of some guy running down an alley, this shadowy terror stalking him relentlessly. The two are intertwined on some basic, secret level, but the guy won't admit it. The question "is the demon a real entity from some unknown realm who's torturing him by driving him towards things he doesn't want to do/hates/fears, or just some aspect of him" can't be answered definitively. When someone is described as being possessed or tormented by demons, it can mean both mental pain and being troubled by external entities on a mental/psychic/spritual level.

Um...I wrote a Cthulhu character who was psychic, and hated it. His abilities could be considered a part of him, or an external being sitting in his mind inflicting pain and torment on him. He tries to run, but can't escape because he's running on the wrong level. That's the sort of idea I'm trying to get across -that the dark parts of your mind might be from outside...

Is that a better answer? It's not an especially game-friendly one though. If you have it, Radiohead's Climbing up the walls song is kinda close.