Angels 2

I have a couple of thoughts concerning the idea of angels in Sorcerer. After reading through the archives, here's my shiny two pennies, more attempts at stimulating ideas than ideas themselves:

1) To back up a biiiiig step: Most of what I've read relates to introducing angels as some sort of new species or new ideology. Would it be possible to make angels a new type of demon? No, I don't have any suggestions as to how that would work, but I wanted to introduce different ways of thinking over the whole angelic idea. The challenge, of course, is working out the angel type without adding any new rules to the system.

2) I agree that angels do not necessarily have to follow Judeo-Christian ideology. But let's take a step back from that, too... I look at religion as a variety of ways to explain... something. How we got here, where we're going after we die, how to live, etc. The truth behind the explanation may be vastly different from the explanation (see any article on Medieval medical theory and practice), but the explanation can very easily be mistaken for the truth. I don't see that introducing Judeo-Christian concepts turns Sorcerer into a battle of G vs. E. Now, your players may *think* that's what happening, but I'm sure we could all find various ways to disabuse them of the notion over time.

I'm very fond of taking J-C stories and re-writing the backstory for them, a la Good Omens but far less goofy. Even if a demon tells you he was an angel but rebelled against bowing to the creation of humankind, are you gonna believe him?

3) Many historic "spell books" include as many spells for summoning angels as for summoning demons. The only difference seems to be the tone of the summoning. Demons are commanded by using the Fifty-Seven names of Jesus' pet donkey or whatever, with promises of unpleasantness if obeisance is not forthcoming. Angels are also commanded by the usual Adonai/Tetragrammaton stuff -- but with the caveat that the summoner *promises* the angel that he has a good reason for summoning him. Interesting, yes?

4) Within the Judeo-Christian milieu (the only one of which I have any decent familiarity), the various books of the Apocrypha are more interesting concerning angels than the OT/NT. The Book of Enoch is especially tantalizing, as it deals with angels having a prolonged interaction with humans, with violent and tragic consequences. (I have an OTE storyline based on the events of Enoch, with a twist or two, of course)

5) Overall, I think the mindset for any GM mulling over angels is to consider the word "angels" a term of convenience, like the term "demon." With that in place, a GM should feel free to borrow from whatever cosmology he feels like, eh?

RON EDWARDS: Wow, more on angels ...

So we kind of line up as follows, huh? 1) angel stuff uses demonic rules, with the differences being largely a matter of theme, style, presentation, and role-playing. 2) angel stuff uses a new set of rules or sub-set, anyway, centered on this idea of "Grace."

Let's discuss #1 a bit more carefully (and give credit to Doug Bolden for being first on the list to suggest this approach).

Ran wrote,

>... Would it be possible to make angels a new type of demon? ... working out the angel type without adding any new rules to the system.

Well, let's figure that out:

Types? Passing and Inconspicuous seem the most appropriate; as well as perhaps taking a peek at Imminents from the Sorcerer & Sword rules. (that was Charles' idea, originally, by the way -- thanks Charles!)

Contacting and Summoning, sure; seems easy enough.

Punishing and Containing? Hmmm. That seems like something for a GM to ponder. The actual rituals and acts involved would seem to be tremendously different from those for demons in the same game.

Binding? There's the biggie. It still seems to me that the Master-Demon relationship is "reversed" to some extent, as discussed earlier ... although again, that could really just be a matter of terminology rather than system.

>... The truth behind the explanation may be vastly different from the explanation (see any article on Medieval medical theory and practice), but the explanation can very easily be mistaken for the truth. I don't see that introducing Judeo-Christian concepts turns Sorcerer into a battle of G vs. E. Now, your players may *think* that's what happening, but I'm sure we could all find various ways to disabuse them of the notion over time.

This is a notion that most people who read and play Sorcerer grasp quite well, I think. The CHARACTER thinks he's consorting with Powers of Darkness, but maybe not even the GM knows just WHAT is "really" happening. (or if the GM does know, game-world-wise, he will never, ever tell) No reason why this can't apply to what the character perceives as Angels, too.

>... the various books of the Apocrypha are more interesting concerning angels than the OT/NT. The Book of Enoch is especially tantalizing, as it deals with angels having a prolonged interaction with humans, with violent and tragic consequences.

You've mentioned this before, back in the "what is a demon" discussion. Can you tell us any specific references or websites that might prove helpful to interested parties?