Angels

Have I missed out on any interesting topics while I switched email accounts, and forgot to resubscribe? It's been about a week :)

RON EDWARDS: I'll toss it back at ya, Greg. What might be an interesting topic for YOU? Demons? Sorcerers? Humanity? Fear? Indie-game issues? Pick one, propose a few questions or ideas, and let us know about it.

GREG: A challenge!

Hmmmm...I pick none of the above, and will instead try a new one.

There are no opposites to the demons (AKA "Angels") that we know of, but what if they did exist? How would they interact in the world of Sorceror? Would the salvation be worse than the damnation?

RAVEN: >There are no opposites to the demons (AKA "Angels") that we know of, but what if they did exist? How would they interact in the world of Sorceror? Would the salvation be worse than the damnation?

This is a really interesting issue, something I've thought about before...spirits and "angels" in Sorcerer?

But before we run full-bore ahead into this, let's examine the questions that the existance of an "opposing force" would bring into play, and the sorts of assumptions that practically go right along with it.

First question that pops to mind: "Good" vs. "Evil"...with the introduction of "opposing forces of light and darkness" one runs into the sticky mess that is moral absolutism. By stating that the demons are "bad" for you and the angels are "good" (or at least not *as bad), one immediately sets up certain moral foundations in the gameworld that will forever dominate its destiny. Do not give into the dark side, young Skywalker! Ooops, sorry...

Are demons "animals" (ie- biologically-based, even if from an alien realm...meaning they exist and function according to certain in-born psychologies and physiologies, not according to some otherworldly plan unless they've adopted it themselves, like a human religion)?

If not, do they have a 'bigger purpose' in the universe, some sort of spiritual destiny or attempt at it as a "race", that is, they are cursed and cast down as a group by some higher power that has dictated the ways of their existance from a spiritual or religious-reality standpoint? Or are they just out to do whatever? (in which case the answer to the first question reverts to 'yes')

Why the heck are these two groups of beings opposed? Philosophical differences? Moral enmity dictated by higher powers of the universe, to which mortals have no access except faith in the beings that they are telling the truth? Or did a demon accidentally piss in an angel's rose-bushes and tick it off, starting an eternal war between the two groups?

Are they ALL "demons" (that is, both angels and demons are the same species)? All of the same "race" or "kind"? Do angels have needs and desires like demons, but different types of ones? Why would they have different needs if they are of the same species? If we say, 'because demons are fallen angels, or seperated from them by magic', are we running into a wall of indocrinated religious belief again? (don't take that indoctrinated word wrong...I mean 'taught since childhood' or 'societally ingrained mental pattern' -- even if you are atheist, you probably have some lurking mainstream ideas about what demons and angels are from our group societal perspective)

What the heck ARE demons, then? Fallen angels? Something else entirely?

Are you tired of my incoherent, rambling questions? I knew you would be!

Any other questions to add to the list for discussion? (and please feel free to discuss these!)

However, I can see some ways in which it might work... Completely giving up all personal power to achieve salvation: mind, body and soul...an unthinking machine of the light as dark as an night emptied of stars and moon...the lack, the void, the emptiness of salvation from everything, from yourself, from motivation, desire, will. The pendulum swings both ways, and eventually must fall back from each apex, but one wonders upon which height of the eternal oscillation right sits, and upon which wrong sits...no matter, it always falls towards the middle.

Ceaseless gyrations, motions built by gravity and inertia...both sides work to destroy the other...for with two sides, the endless dance is always the same...with one side, there is nothing to dance with and without a center, the motion stops...to reforge reality, to destroy reality... And who is the worthy victor?

GREG: > What the heck ARE demons, then? Fallen angels? Something else entirely?

Let's ask Ron...Ron? You have anything on this, or is it left up to the GM?

JARED: Has anyone seen the site for FALN -- it's a weird angels RPG. I'd post the URL but it seems to be gone. :(

SCOTT: It WAS http://vvv.com/bizvic/faln/ but that site is no longer found there.

DOUG: Ron's game design seems to be of the AD&D type in which a certain type of mechanic and the key and the story takes what it needs. This means, I would consider this to be part of the GMs decision in the campaign. But, if there are "angelic" forces, I think they should be treated identical to demons (have the same sort of stats, same sort of magick, same sort of need and at least similar types) because if you start bringing in other magickal paradigms, you sort of remove the basic premise of sorcerer all together.

Another problem is that you have to ask yourself, are angel's free spirits that do what they will, and this is a biggie. If they are, what makes their demonic counterparts bound based? Why isn't there demons all over the place without any summoning required? And if they do require to be bound, why would they do so? It seems that attaching yourself to an angelic creature would be antithetical to what the angelic creature might stand for.

But, let's assume that there are no problems with angelics, how would YOU (meaning all of you) recommend using them. Most interestingly, what would be the forms you would reccomend and what would be the powers?

JARED: it was hosted at arcnewmedia.com at one point...argh.

anyway...

> sorcerer all together. Another problem is that you have to ask yourself, are angel's free spirits that do what they will, and this is a biggie.

what if angels are the equivalent of "demons" but they're (semi)permanently bound to God?

TODD: It seems to me that demons, for the purposes of playing a role, will be hostile or indifferent to the welfare of humans. While angels, on the other hand, will promote the welfare of humans, although they would make demands upon humans that might make it just as easy to deal with the demons.

RON EDWARDS: Way back in the misty recesses of the past, a guy named Ed Healy called me up and asked if I'd considered the "angels thing" in Sorcerer. I told him I'd rather concern myself with pulp sword&sorcery. And since then, every so often, someone wants to know how angels would or do fit into the Sorcerer game, and every time, I duck!

Ran Hardin brought this issue up last year, and you can find that whole discussion on the Development page of the Sorc website under "Demon motives." Here's an excerpt from my part of that discussion that I'll briefly resurrect, just so I won't have to paraphrase it.

Rather than get into what is or isn't interpretable from biblical or church-institution texts, I'm interested in the emotional-thematic side of it all. Frankly, treating it all like a big misunderstanding or social scene among celestials bores me. That's my beef with In Nomine - despite all their kewl source material, it's really just a bunch of yahoos with powers thumping and scamming on each other. The tag line says it all: 'They are very much like us.' Boring!

This is why I've shied away from playtesting Sorcerer using these elements, even though the imagery, cultural relevance, emotional impact, etc, has such great potential. Most of the RPG versions of such stuff degenerate the Celestial Picture down to powers & perils, and I don't consider myself competent to generate or convey true awe, true horror, true drama out of it myself. Any ideas on making it work in powerful, emotional, player-oriented terms, rather than being just another premise?

So this is definitely meat for the list. It's also meat for the next supplement, which is to be called "The Sorcerer's Soul" and mainly concerns the Humanity mechanic. And as you might imagine, a theological angle too, or at least options for the GM if he or she wants to do that.

Raven wrote: >By stating that the demons are "bad" for you and the angels are "good" (or at least not *as bad), one immediately sets up certain moral foundations in the gameworld that will forever dominate its destiny. .... >Completely giving up all personal power to achieve salvation: mind, body and soul...an unthinking machine of the light as dark as an night emptied of stars and moon...the lack, the void, the emptiness of salvation from everything, from yourself, from motivation, desire, will.

Yeah, this is part of my thinking on the matter for sure -- that the "angel deal," if there is one, can have NOTHING to do with the Humanity/power quandary inherent to the demon deal. Basically, another whole game mechanic needs to be invented (mirror to a demon's Power) and it needs to have a unique relationship to a PC's Humanity. For lack of a better term, I'll call it *Grace.*

Greg wrote: >Let's ask Ron...Ron? You have anything on this, or is it left up to the GM?

Whoa, quick clarification. On this list, I am just another GM, except when sometimes I turn into Supplement-Writer-Man. For all questions of this sort (angels, evil, demon motives, etc) the game is DONE. No "inside scoop" exists on any game-world, any metaphysical secrets, or demons' true nature, or anything.

Doug wrote: >I think they should be treated identical to demons (have the same sort of stats, same sort of magick, same sort of need and at least similar types) because if you start bringing in other magickal paradigms, you sort of remove the basic premise of sorcerer all together.

and Jared wrote: >what if angels are the equivalent of "demons" but they're (semi)permanently bound to God?

Well, these two are different from what I sorta claimed above, aren't they?

Let's see: 1) if demons = angels for all practical game/story purposes, we're dealing with Prophecy territory (the Walken movie, not the stupid mutant bear horror movie). This isn't a bad thing ... it actually solves the "angel problem" quite thoroughly, insofar as all the mechanics and so on are already there. A good story along these lines concerns characters who THINK they're in good shape 'cause the angels are on their side, but their situation turns out to be very similar to that of the diabolists. Not bad!

2) or if we stick with my notions above which basically demand a Whole New Approach, Doug is in fact right -- the whole game changes radically. Not a bad thing, but definitely an important one, not to be taken lightly.

How 'bout the notion that Grace is "loaned" to humans as Humanity? So an angel comes along to this hag-ridden, soul-burned sorcerer, and says, "Hey buddy, use some of this. Looks like you need it." This is interesting ... it sets up a relationship between the angel and the guy; in fact, one can see the angel then doing things or facilitating things that on the face of it are pretty terrible -- but what they are, really, are opportunities for the guy to get Humanity back without using sorcery. If the PC does this, winning back some Humanity the usual way, the angel increases in Grace.

Hmmm. Needs work, but I think I'm onto something.

Todd: >It seems to me that demons, for the purposes of playing a role, will be hostile or indifferent to the welfare of humans. While angels, on the other hand, will promote the welfare of humans, although they would make demands upon humans that might make it just as easy to deal with the demons.

This whole discussion certainly enlarges on the foregoing "Demon motives" discussion. One element of "demon motives" that a lot of us agreed on was that they were not really indifferent to humans and their welfare -- obscure, certainly; corruptive, destructive, etc; but how that related to their MOTIVES and even their origins turned out to be pretty various. Ran even suggested that humans corrupt THEM ...

And yes, angels would by definition promote human welfare -- and all of a sudden we're faced with every possible moral conundrum that implies. (1) WHOSE welfare, when it necessitates harm to OTHER humans? (2) In what time scale; i.e., you suffer now, but your sons' sons will be kings? (3) Welfare in what sense; one's soul or worldly goods or basic happiness or what?

Hey. There's the foundation for the angel discussion. The interaction between Grace and Humanity would HAVE to turn on that very issue, in a game I ran along these lines.

ED: I believe that Ron has already stipulated a certain degree of moral stricture in the Sorcerer RPG. If you go back and read the first few pages, you'll see that he stresses the fact that the PCs are dealing with forces that they are not supposed to be dealing with, and that this transgression (if I can use that word) of the natural order of things has dire consequences.

So, I think there is already some moral reference point in Sorcerer. Some have expressed concern about dealing with "Good" vs. "Evil", and pigeonholing demons with the introduction of angels. I think demons are already pigeonholed, we just leave it up to the GM what degree of a price the PC must pay for his chosen path. Introducing angels does not need to alter the game too much, as long as it is left up to the discretion of the GM. Heck, Ron, you should write a supplement like Sorcerer & Sword, but for angels, with many different possible ways to add angels. Every thing from:

Option #1 could be that Angels and Demons are just the same, that they are two warring factions of beings that are just as evil or good as each other, but Angels have convinced humans that they are 'better' or something.

To: Option #2 could be the Judea-Christian theory about Angels being The messengers of God and Demons being fallen Angels. ----- Ok, so here's another idea.

We play Sorcerer's who call and bind demons. Well, Angels could be beings who call and bind humans. Think about it... .From a human perspective, why is 'evil' so much easier and attractive? Maybe because you don't have to sacrifice of yourself to some perceived regiment of rules. Maybe it's because you think YOU are in control. People think of religion as pseudo-slavery.

This idea would lend itself well to my tourny concept for Sorcerer... namely, that players can control human sorcerers and demons. Well, with the introduction of Angels, maybe you'd have four groups of playings... The Sorcerers, the Demons, the Angels and the 'Believers (?)'....

RON EDWARDS: Wow, this is like the old days. Fortunately my students are final'd and graded, so it's a nice free day to muse about angelic matters.

Ed wrote: >I believe that Ron has already stipulated a certain degree of moral stricture in the Sorcerer RPG. ... PCs are dealing with forces that they are not supposed to be dealing with, and that this transgression (if I can use that word) of the natural order of things has dire consequences. ... So, I think there is already some moral reference point in Sorcerer.

Guilty. Although I doubt many self-appointed guardians of moral codes would approve of the "outlaw prevails" option described in the last chapter, and this option's existence is really what makes the game playable at all.

Here's what I mean. Supposing a theological context to one's game, and a fairly-traditional post-death moment of judgment, it is likely that many Sorcerer PCs anticipate the following conversation with God: G: "You total creep, you broke so many rules I can't even count them. Would you prefer to fry eternally or burn painfully until the end of time?" PC: "Hold on, Tex. Look what I accomplished: this, that, and the other thing. You gonna tell me that these were bad things to accomplish?" G: "Well, OK, it's good all that got done. But the WAY you did it -- ugh! No, it's off to the sulphurous torments for you, my lad." PC: "Hey! Hey! Look at the position I was in! Tell me, how could I have possibly accomplished this, that, and the other thing any other way?"

(at this point either the Almighty proves he's a short-sighted bully and our hero goes to fry, albeit in a very Promethean, one-last-raspberry sort of way; or the Almighty concedes the point and our hero is the one guy in existence who talked to God as an equal and told Him where to go and how to get off)

The above example is of course obnoxious and not entirely serious ... but again, yes, the whole Sorcerer paradigm POSITS a moral structure, but also suggests that the hero may operate heroically in the conceptual or practical CRACKS in that structure. (A sorcerer who just defies that structure is, of course, the typical villain character.)

>Heck, Ron, you should write a supplement like Sorcerer & Sword, but for angels, with many different possible ways to add angels.

Well, as I said before, that's part of the upcoming supplement. However, much like S&Sword, instead of being a sourcebook of umpteen angels and archangels and all their little soap-opera interactions, it would (as you say) provide the necessary QUESTIONS and OPTIONS to be considered by a given GM and playing-group. How they answer and arrange those answers would be all their problem (and with luck, their own reward, once the story got rolling).

>We play Sorcerer's who call and bind demons. Well, Angels could be beings who call and bind humans. Think about it...

Guh!! Now that would be interesting. I find myself momentarily befuddled. Suggestions, comments, anyone?

GREG: > Suggestions, comments, anyone?

The Angels are at War in the Metaphysical Realm--some call this the Astral Plane, others, Limbo. There are times when Demons escape into the Earth Realm (otherwise known as the "Plane of Meat" by some Demons, and even a few Angels!), and are untouchable by the Angels...until they go ahead and do some recruiting on their own.

Thus, people who deal with Angels don't get the freedom of choice--they get drafted. Some appreciate the honor of being a host for the Angels, but others are forced into this, and want their old lives back. Tough titty, though--as the Angels can coerce their hosts into fighting the Evil regardless of personal opinions...

More on this as it comes

JARED: > Suggestions, comments, anyone?

This is my favorite suggestion so far.

Angels and Demons are basically the same...they just do things a bit differently. Sorcerers (god, that word is hard for me to spell! I keep wanting to add an "o") bind Demons in order to acquire power -- Demons go along with this because they get something out of it as well. The humans "use" the Demons power in exchange for favors.

Angels, on the other hand, take this approach: Angel: Hey pal. I need to ask you a favor... Mortal: Uh-oh. Angel: No really...listen. I need to use your body. Not for a long time, and I promise to deliver it back to you more or less intact -- Mortal: What's with this more or less crap?! Angel: Hey, bub. I could just possess you and be done with it, right? I'm asking. I need help...Humanity needs help and you're the schmoe who can provide that help. I can make it worth your while... Mortal: Keep talking, halo-boy.

With Angels, it's like they're asking to borrow your car in return for their eternal gratitude. With Demons, they're offering to supe-up your car (add some nice racing striped, maybe that phat stereo system you've been eyeing at Good Guys) in exchange for...well, we can talk figures later, eh?

RAVEN: Greg wrote: >Let's ask Ron...Ron? You have anything on this, or is it left up to the GM?

Left up to the GM...all things are. Ron was very careful to leave an overarching cosmology out of the game; one of the many main reasons I'm so enamored of it.

Jared wrote: >what if angels are the equivalent of "demons" but they're (semi)permanently >bound to God?

;D Actually, that question was exactly what I was afraid of...plopping a whole cosmology into the game, taking away some of the mystery, the uncertainity, the true origins and purpose of the demonic forces.

One of the nice things about Sorcerer has been that the demons aren't inherently linked to any sort of religious viewpoint...they just are, and we know what they are, but not why they are (rather like humans). There is no "devil", no "demonic overlord with boring plans to rule the world and destroy humanity" shtick, no "satan, leader of the legions of hell." (Well, there is: me; at least according to my fellow engineers )

The problem: "God" In this scenario, suddenly "God" exists and, one must assume, the whole of the Judeo-Christian cosmology...where it was left in the air before, and could be, now it IS...such a premise states it clearly. And following from this, the entire concept of religious faith is boiled down to which corporation you want to work for...no free choice, faith isn't necessary -- you get your hiring bonus and a benefits package. Which, if one studies Judeo-Christian religions, goes completely against parts of their expressed philosophy stating that faith is absolutely necessary to finally enter Paradise after physical death (otherwise, if you know the real truth instead of believe it, there's no point in free choice and whatnot).

Now, for those who don't mind playing in that sort of strictly understood environment, that's fine; and I'll admit that I rather like the whole "War in Heaven" concept, Demons vs. Angels and all that.

Right now, demons could be anything from demons in the traditional western sense, to alien creatures from another realm of existance, or even aliens from our own universe (concepts from the show "First Wave" on Sci-Fi could apply here); they could even be the fire giants from Norse myth, prophecied to eventually break down the walls between Midgaard and their realm and sweep the world with fire. It all depends on where you want to go with it.

I think the thing to try when adding a new class of beings to the game is to define not what they are, but what they do and what they want as individuals. Demons have needs, Angels have..? Needs? Angels display what kind of powers? If the same kind as demons...isn't that rather like renaming a species, "Well, these are dogs and these are yogs, even though they are the same thing." Is the difference in the way they interact with humans?

I like Ron's "Grace" concept...doing good things for humanity...but what is good? Perhaps doing what the Angels want gives you Grace, but in some cases takes away real Humanity...eventually you have a "ghost" Humanity score: your Grace...and if you fall from Grace you are in real trouble...

On to something here, maybe.

ED: You know, I don't think that if you introduce Angels, you must introduce the Judeo-Christian religious flavor to Sorcerer. The beauty of Sorcerer is that demons are not unique to one world view (secular or religious). You can see them in many folklore and legends on earth.

The prehistoric Native Americans believed that the stars were the "Monster Children", who were fighting a battle in the heavens over control of the spirit world. Many groups believed that 'something' cast spirits down from the stars - some becoming people, some plants and some animals. This mythology is behind the naturalist religions of the many Indian nations of the Americas. One interesting point is that they believed that if your soul was not properly cared for after death, it stayed to haunt the world of the living. Fear of the dark, fear of the ice, fear of the ocean... all these were attributed to by some as normal because 'evil spirits' might come and snatch your soul away from you. Fear of the unknown.

However, some men and women braved the unknown and became spiritual leaders, both feared and respected. Some of them were even said to have the power to such a man's soul out of his body and spit it into the night. (Sounds like a fear of witches and sorcerers, in a way). At any rate, there were also benevolent spirits.

In a sense, if you were to introduce Angels in this type of setting, you would be saying that the demons were the 'bad' spirits and the angels were the 'good' ones. Whether these terms mean good vs. evil or known vs. unknown, the real question is whether you can play a game using two distinct (or not so) groups of otherworldly beings. I think you can.

So how would you do this in Sorcerer without (1) dictating a world view and (2) leaving as much freedom to the GM as the original game concept does. I would say you do this by saying that there can be more than one type of spiritual being, and leaving the exact nature of the differences up the GM.

Let's be honest, though. Most people will stay with what is comfortable and use the new option to introduce Angels as the good guys in a Xian-like campaign. That's fine, as it's always their choice. It's just that we'd want to leave it open to as many interpretations as possible. And maybe, just maybe, if the option was presented with a few really good examples of how to implement the idea other than the Angel = God's servant and Demon = Fallen Angel thread, you would find that many of these groups would have fun playing the game in this new way.

What options for Angels are there above and beyond the Christian viewpoint? Let's brainstorm.

JARED: God, meaning, a "higher power" -- I didn't say anything about long-haired guys nailed to pieces of wood or anything...

I'd rather see "Angels" as a servitor race while "Demons" are opportunistic. Why are they enemies? Who knows? Maybe they're the same being (or type of being) 'cept the demons are those that transgressed their society's laws and the angels are like bounty hunters or something?

RAVEN: Ok, clarification for me: I'm not against dealing with good and evil, morality, right and wrong...I'm against dealing with large infusions of "God and the Devil." After all, some clear boundaries, set and known things, are necessary to play...in this case, that demonic powers are better left alone, alien, unnatural.

The part that gets me is that even knowing this, sometimes, perhaps, just sometimes, utilizing such powers to achieve a goal might be necessary...and that is the driving moral force behind the game (IMO)...the struggle to do what is best weighed against the consequences of not doing what is right, and all the myriad complications and philosophical questions implied therein.

I'd like to see the inclusion of angels add something similar and as powerful.

>We play Sorcerer's who call and bind demons. Well, Angels could be beings who call and bind humans.

Wow, we must be on the same wavelength...did the post I wrote pitching the same idea not reach the list? Hrm...strange. Anyways...

Let's also recall, if going down the path of the Judeo-Christian mythos, that in the old days, angels weren't these lovely winged beings floating around smiling at everyone and espousing love, peace and protection. They were seen with awe, fear and even distrust. Yehova had to keep them on a short leash, and they were infatuated with human women to the point that Yehova had to impose laws that on the Jewish people that women keep their faces covered so as not to tempt his angels (at least that's how I think it went). If they did mate, they produced Nephilim and giants -- powerful, deformed things.

A good source of traditional (ie: non-New Age) Angelic lore as used in a game can be found within the "Children of Fire" RPG (http://www.mimgames.com/cof/). I encourage you all to check it out as it can only contribute to this discussion! (And for those paying attention, yes, this is the same site with the Window RPG on it)

Perhaps the Angels are merely a group within the greater race of demons who have banded together, while all else around them is chaos and selfishness, for a greater goal...though who knows if that goal is truly divine in nature... Perhaps Angels ask the question of the necessity of faith amidst chaos. They provide, they demand, they uplift, they push forward...but they never, ever promise...and if you are left broken on the streets, and abandon your faith in them, you lose your power...*their power...

Fallen from grace...

Grace: the source of your power...their power?

The question...when the shit is chest-high, do you push forward and drown, or do the smart thing and turn back? Do you trust the angel, that there is path through, knowing full well that it may let you drown for some plan, some "greater purpose", to come of your tragedy and betrayal (and there's the quandary...you know full well that you can't trust it, and thus you can never be betrayed by it for it never promised anything...yet it gives you everything). And your corpse become the solid ground for someone else: "Trust that all things I do, I do for a reason which serves all of humanity."

Humanity...interesting link...

And if everyone is drowned to achieve those plans... Where is the line between selfishness and sacrifice...at what point does the light blind?

If the theme of Sorcerer demons is "humans playing with things better left alone", then what is the theme of Sorcerer angels?

The human soul? Faith in a greater purpose amid the chaos? The strength to achieve such, or to accept that it is a mythical beast.

Angels...demons frightened by the revelation that there may be no purpose?..demons with an inkling of conscience...an inkling of humanity and a taste of it...awakened to doing, from the slumber of being...the feral, hungry beast enlightened to the horror of existance by the cries of its prey...intellect thrust over instinct by sudden revelation...the murder's bloodlust broken by a whisper of horrible, revealing conscience...startling empathy...

"Man cannot know the mind of God." But does God have a mind? Or is it chance that dicatates the threads of life's tapestry that are spun...all things lead eventually to all other things only because nothing doesn't happen...coincidence...circumstance...or Fate?

RAVEN: Greg wrote: >Thus, people who deal with Angels don't get the freedom of choice--they get drafted. Some appreciate the honor of being a host for the Angels, but others are forced into this, and want their old lives back. Tough titty, though--as the Angels can coerce their hosts into fighting the Evil regardless of personal opinions...

Possession by a force that wants you to do good for the human race...possibly by forcing you to do things you would consider bad...knock out the stuff about the Astral Realms and all that (I can feel the walls of game-world freedom close in ;) ), and I could see some interesting developments here.

ED: Raven wrote: > The part that gets me is that even knowing this, sometimes, perhaps, just sometimes, utilizing such powers to achieve a goal might be necessary...and that is the driving moral force behind the game (IMO)...the struggle to do what is best weighed against the consequences of not doing what is right, > and all the myriad complications and philosophical questions implied therein.

The new byline for Sorcerer could be "When the ends justify the means" =)

Raven also wrote: > … angels weren't these lovely winged beings floating around smiling at everyone and espousing love, peace and protection. They were seen with awe, fear and even distrust. Yehova had to keep them on a short leash, and they were infatuated with human women to the point that Yehova had to impose laws that on the Jewish people that women keep their faces covered so as not to tempt his angels (at least that's how I think it went). If they did mate, they produced Nephilim and giants -- powerful, deformed things.

Getting off topic (sorry) - but I must disagree about this. This is a common misconstrued idea about Nephilim, etc... Although you are right about one thing... Angels are not (Biblically) winged Leonardo DiCaprios. They are very powerful and not at all benign. There is a book of Christian Fiction called "This Present Darkness" which has some neat imagery about demons and angels. Check it out if you want - might inspire something.

At any rate, I agree that there needs to be an equally powerful reason to include Angels - especially with how they effect and affect humanity.

RAVEN: >that demons are not unique to one world view (secular or religious). You can see them in many folklore and legends on earth.

This is definitely true!

>The prehistoric Native Americans believed that the stars were the "Monster Children"

Personal peeve, and one shared by many 'Native Americans': I can't stand the lumping of all the Red nations into the term "Native Americans", like it was a continent-wide, homogenous culture of some sort when the red race quite clearly had a wide variety of very distinct cultures and beliefs and lifestyles.

It would be like saying "the Europeans believed that" when, in the group "Europeans" includes Romans, Norsemen, Celts, Slavs and many other very culturally distinct groups. Yes, there are certain similarities, BUT not enough to make the broad generalization excusable or academically defendable.

I know what you are trying to say, and I understand; but as I said, personal peeve. Indeed, my immediate reaction was to be a little shit and ask, "Oh yeah? Which tribe? Sioux? Ojibwe? Iriquois? Anastasi?"

No hard feelings, I hope! I'm just getting the point out there. Ok, rant-mode off, on with the discussion.

>At any rate, there were also benevolent spirits.

>the real question is whether you can play a game using two distinct (or not so) groups of otherworldly beings. I think you can.

>So how would you do this in Sorcerer without (1) dictating a world view and (2) leaving as much freedom to the GM as the original game concept does.

Exactly! This is exactly what I'm after, though you managed to state it in a less lengthy and verbose fashion than I did.

>use the new option to introduce Angels as the good guys in a Xian-like campaign. That's fine, as it's always their choice. It's just that we'd want to leave it open to as many interpretations as possible.

Heck, I don't even mind playing it that way! But I wouldn't want to be restricted to it, since I consider that wholly a flight of fancy (not meaning offense to any Christians here -- as I say, these are my personal beliefs) and would also like to explore more personally meaningful/deeper storylines.

To clafify that with a metaphor, it is the difference between writing a comedy bit to be funny, and penning a work of elaborate sarcastic parody...both are fun and amusing, but one goes deeper into major issues. (And because this is a touchy subject: Yes, for some folks, the Judeo-Christian oriented game would be the more meaningful...each to their own)

>just maybe, if the option was presented with a few really good examples of how to implement the idea other than the Angel = God's servant and Demon = Fallen Angel thread, you would find that many of these groups would have fun playing the game in this new way.

>What options for Angels are there above and beyond the Christian viewpoint?

I wish I knew my Bhuddism and Eastern belief systems better...but there's a starting point, the ascended masters of certain meditative orders as opposed to the demons of the underworld. There are even the dragons and celestial servants of the Chinese Celestial Beauracracy to consider...as well as their beliefs in ghosts, both helpful and harmful.

In Norse culture, there were all manner of wights and ghosts and spirits whom were helpful to the inhabitants of the land. Of course, there were also trolls and jotun, and less clearly defined creatures that could be good or evil (and I, for one, think that perhaps the demons in certain games of Sorcerer might actually not written to be as wholly evil as they are commonly perceived). I should also note that there are two different brands of giants, which are (IIRC) Jotun and Thurses. One, as a race, means humanity no ill, nor any good, either -- they just are, they exist, they can be viewed in part as manifestations of nature -- while the other are most assuredly opposed to humanity. There are also the Einherjar, the fallen warriors of Odin's hall, the Valkyries who choose the slain, the...oh boy, I should really just go get my books and work all this out into a coherent posting over the next week.

Anyone interested in seeing it?

RAVEN:

>Getting off topic (sorry) - but I must disagree about this. This is a common misconstrued idea about Nephilim, etc...

I'd be honored if you would fill me in on the misinformation in my details (privately, if you prefer)?

>They are very powerful and not at all benign. There is a book of Christian Fiction called "This Present Darkness" which has some neat imagery about demons and angels. Check it out if you want - might inspire something.

Heh...doesn't that book portray RPGs as works of the devil meant to lead you down the path to corruption? I read portions of it years ago and recall that video games, rock music and a variety of other things typically declared "the work of Satan" by various right-wing groups received similar scathing treatments in the text.

Are you trying to tell us something about Sorcerer, Ed? Heheh (I can see the t-shirts now: "Hello, hell? Ron sent me..." "I went to hell and all I got was this RPG")

ED:

BTW - I'm sure you all have seen this site, but a great place to learn about differing mythologies and folk legends is www.pantheon.org

Great Site!

ED:

> I'd be honored if you would fill me in on the misinformation in my details (privately, if you prefer)?

Sure - if anyone else wants to be cc:d the email, just let me know.

> Heh...doesn't that book portray RPGs as works of the devil meant to lead you down the path to corruption?

To tell you the truth, I don't remember much about the book, save the fact that the imagery of demons and angels was pretty good. It's at least worth checking out of the library.

RAVEN:

>God, meaning, a "higher power" -- I didn't say anything about long-haired guys nailed to pieces of wood or anything...

That hippie! But it's true, you didn't...you also didn't mention Zoroaster, famous Rabbis or the founder of Islam.

The Zoroastorian cosmology might be a good place to look for ideas...very interesting concepts of heavenly, spiritual wars there.

GREG:

> If the theme of Sorcerer demons is "humans playing with things better left alone", then what is the theme of Sorcerer angels?

"Humans are being played in the Greater Game"

"The Greater Game of what?"

"Life"

(hmmmm...things to mull over)

RON EDWARDS:

It might be good to get back to basics with the Angel question. Actual mythologies, actual nuances of the Judeo-Christian worldview(s), actual et cetera are interesting, but in order to treat this issue properly, we have to have one basic question in mind.

Raven wrote,

>I think the thing to try when adding a new class of beings to the game is to define not what they are, but what they do and what they want as individuals.

>Demons have needs, Angels have..? Needs?

>Angels display what kind of powers? If the same kind as demons...isn't that rather like renaming a species, Well, these are dogs and these are yogs, even though they are the same thing.

>Is the difference in the way they interact with humans?

>Perhaps doing what the Angels want gives you Grace, but in some cases takes away real Humanity ... eventually you have a "ghost" Humanity score: your Grace...and if you fall from Grace you are in real trouble...

This is definitely stating the primary issue: what is the UNIQUE NARRATIVE ROLE of the "angel being"? It can't be the same as with demons: you just have more demons, and if you WANT to do that, fine, but the rules are all set for it already. If it's different, then what?

So far, I'm sticking with the Grace concept -- that angels can "lend" Grace as Humanity. Any more notions? Perhaps, as Raven suggests, Grace has its drawbacks, in that you're now committed to it rather than your OWN Humanity. Or perhaps the main issue is simply that to continue using/having it, your behavior is now more structured. Or just that the behavior expected or demanded or implied by the angel-entity is not really what you might want to do.

I'm also considering the idea of how to PLAY angels. I'm fine with demons: I can do funny, horrific, psycho-surreal, action-movie, etc, etc, versions. Many themes, many approaches to the basic "demonic paradigm," and I love'em all. One of the reasons and purposes for Sorcerer's very existence is my own facility with GMing them.

But angels? Huh. Two or three options present themselves (angel types?):

- very human at first sight, with a solid charisma and "truth" about them -- a lot like angel characters in movies (or ultra-good aliens in SF, like Starman). Perhaps a bit envious of the uncertainty and bustle of being human (as in Wings of Desire). Maybe a bit pathetic in their unswerving altruism, painfully empathic.

- utterly unfathomable: multi-winged multi-eyed hallucinatory beings, almost an experience rather than an individual; perhaps even requiring Will rolls to recall what they said.

And another thing ... Humanity is really an ABILITY SCORE, which is one of the main topics of the upcoming supplement. How would Grace operate? Especially for someone with low-Humanity, high-Grace?