Supplements

I think the average roleplayer has been trained, dog-like, to equate "many supplements" with "good." Over the years, supplements are not so much battlegrounds (as they were originally) or unconnected banks of ideas (as they were in the late 80s) but FICTION, thinly disguised as roleplaying materials.

I hate this trend and think it's basically the result of book-distributors' and store-owners' economic situation, with NO connection to or service to roleplaying as an activity. So my question is, how would a first-time reader of Sorcerer best be encouraged to generate his or her own stories? Given that I will be opposing initial expectations from someone who picks up an RPG, how can I, well, slip it to them gently? Or maybe gently isn't the way.

Since I've already decided that the book-method is not what I'm going to do, it is totally unnecessary to regard this question from a book-selling, game-store-culture point of view. I'm talking specifically about someone who downloaded the Apprentice from the website, or even bought the Master, and is reading it.

Let me know what you think. *********

RAVEN: >I think the average roleplayer has been trained, dog-like, to equate "many >supplements" with "good." Over the years, supplements are not so much >battlegrounds (as they were originally) or unconnected banks of ideas (as >they were in the late 80s) but FICTION, thinly disguised as roleplaying >materials.

I agree, and I despise this as a trend. It has been one of my major complaints with TSR worlds for the past years since 2nd Ed. came out, as well as the World of Darkness storyline (which I have never touched more than buying some of the basic core rulebooks). What basically happens is that you are buying a novel with a preset plotline, and your characters are just sort of traipsing blindly through it. This also has the effect of causing problems when narrators deviate from the official material, as the further their campaign goes from the official campaign, the more useless the supplements become. Course, how do you get away from this and still produce products that players might wish to buy?

>I hate this trend and think it's basically the result of book-distributors' >and store-owners' economic situation, with NO connection to or service to >roleplaying as an activity. So my question is, how would a first-time >reader of Sorcerer best be encouraged to generate his or her own stories? >Given that I will be opposing initial expectations from someone who picks >up an RPG, how can I, well, slip it to them gently? Or maybe gently isn't >the way.

The same way we used to do it in the old days, with the original D&D boxed sets (which had *nothing but the basic rules...everything else was up to you to make). You just don't put any campaign material in. Also, in the current environment it is probably necessary (being that everyone expects to be spoon-fed all their game material) to state that Sorcerer is a game with no pre-set background or world-detail, that it is a role-playing system with a unique hook, and everything else is up to the individual narrator and players.

I, personally, found one of the most useful portions of the old free Sorcerer rules to be the section on creating a campaign from the ground up (ie -- determining what demons are, where they are from, why they want to be here, who the sorcerers are, what the world is like, etc.). I think a similar section in the new Master rules would be equally as indispensible.

This is basically what the old D&D rules had a person do...except you were not given *any help on questions to ask yourself and directions to go. I think such a 'return to the basics', or so to speak, would be the wisest move, but with the addition of the necessary chapters on world/campaign/adventure-design.

>Since I've already decided that the book-method is not what I'm going to >do, it is totally unnecessary to regard this question from a book-selling, >game-store-culture point of view. I'm talking specifically about someone >who downloaded the Apprentice from the website, or even bought the Master, >and is reading it.

Another thing that might want to be considered, and I have no idea if you have thought about it yet or not, is producing *one-time supplements...Sorcerer Arabia (for ancient Arabian plotlines), Sorcerer Celestial (something like a "war in heaven" supplement), including possible futures or possible plotlines games could take. Nothing concrete, however. All being basic campaign layouts, independent from one another, and never added to (so the narrator has the ability to push their world where they want it to go without the 'official' material bunging it up).

>Let me know what you think.

There's my penny. ***********

RON EDWARDS:

>What basically happens is that you are buying a novel with a preset >plotline, and your characters are just sort of traipsing blindly through >it.

One of my players, upon reading an especially obvious example of this problem in a White Wolf supplement ("Clash of Wills"), compared playing fusion jazz (our style of RPGing) to karaoke (the WW supplement).

>Course, how do you get away from this and still produce products that >players might wish to buy? > [solution] >You just don't put any campaign material in.

I came up with this plan: the Apprentice version is actually fairly structured, i.e. you pick your sorcerous path and demons from a list during character creation. However, in the Master version it's far more free-form, and the sourcebook stuff goes into a separate chapter.

>I, personally, found one of the most useful portions of the old free >Sorcerer rules to be the section on creating a campaign from the ground up

Yeah, they're still in there, along with a "training run" scenario based on a demo I used to do.

I also beefed up the section on my game's story (the Black Wheel, the sanzoku, etc), hoping to get kind of a springboard effect.

>producing *one-time >supplements...Sorcerer Arabia (for ancient Arabian plotlines), Sorcerer >Celestial (something like a "war in heaven" supplement), including possible >futures or possible plotlines games could take.

Well, I've got two in mind. The main one is getting down and dirty Hyborian-style, with sword-and-sorcery fantasy. In fact, I don't think ANY RPG has captured this genre very well (including Elric, which tries). The sorcery is especially interesting, because, in Sorcerer terms, characters like Conan actually have a Lore of 1. I've written up a pretty good skeleton for this and it could be whipped into shape fairly soon.

The other one was going to be my own campaign background, but most of it has found its way into the rules anyway. One thing that I thought was a tad too adult for the manuscript was dice-rules for the really transgressive sorcery. E.g., a sorcerer of Dark Lady cult has to roll Humanity vs. his or her own Will in order to bliss out during sex, and then roll Will vs. his or her own Humanity in order "ride the wave" and turn the sensation into sorcerous power. Of course, as sorcerers' Humanity drops, they have to get kinkier and kinkier to boost their first roll ... I had a variety of such rules for the Black Wheel and the Psyche junkies too. Intense stuff. Trouble is, it grades into fiction fast.

What I'd like to do is offer such things on a limited-time-only basis from off the site. Maybe some will be free (e.g. just lists of new demons, maybe the rules I talk about above) and some will cost (the sword-and-sorcery thing).

To sum up: I do like some ideas and suggestions included in an RPG. It always gets me going, whether in agreement or rebellion. So bare-bones is probably not the way. But whole idea of "so do you have your supplements ready" as being the yardstick of value for an RPG ... no, no. That's just not the road I'm taking.

Thanks for the comments! *********

ED HEALY I believe one of the best ways to support the original 'core' Sorcerer game, as well as expand it's horixons into new and uncharted territories, is by use of the website.

The idea of having a dynamic place where hard core Sorcerer fans can exchange ideas and source material with the creators of the game (and eachother) is the essence of what make an RPG site a good (or even a great) one.

Some ideas:

- a fan area where people can expound on their takes on the system, the world(s) they have built around your creation. - free stuff (officially) from the mount of Mr. Ed(wards) himself. The idea of making this a transient part of the site is good. By taking material off after a month or two, you do two things - (1) increase the likelihood of repeat visits, and (2) set a premium on old material (which should not be reposted again). - Some laymen resources, like some papers on what demons are, etc... This will help people understand the concepts behind the game (and should be left on the site IMnsHO) ***********

RAVEN: >One of my players, upon reading an especially obvious example of this >problem in a White Wolf supplement ("Clash of Wills"), compared playing >fusion jazz (our style of RPGing) to karaoke (the WW supplement).

Interesting comparison...and it sounds fairly accurate.

>>Course, how do you get away from this and still produce products that >>players might wish to buy? >> >[solution] >>You just don't put any campaign material in.

And you put "How to make a campaign" material in.

>I came up with this plan: the Apprentice version is actually fairly >structured, i.e. you pick your sorcerous path and demons from a list during >character creation. However, in the Master version it's far more >free-form, and the sourcebook stuff goes into a separate chapter.

>>I, personally, found one of the most useful portions of the old free >>Sorcerer rules to be the section on creating a campaign from the ground up > >Yeah, they're still in there, along with a "training run" scenario based on >a demo I used to do.

Cool, I'll have to get the Master version when I have available cash.

>I also beefed up the section on my game's story (the Black Wheel, the >sanzoku, etc), hoping to get kind of a springboard effect.

Good idea, I'd say.

>>producing *one-time supplements... > >Well, I've got two in mind. The main one is getting down and dirty >Hyborian-style, with sword-and-sorcery fantasy. In fact, I don't think ANY >RPG has captured this genre very well (including Elric, which tries). The >sorcery is especially interesting, because, in Sorcerer terms, characters >like Conan actually have a Lore of 1. I've written up a pretty good >skeleton for this and it could be whipped into shape fairly soon.

Sounds great...I'll be looking forward to seeing that, as I agree with you that nothing game-wise has really captured the swords-and-sorcery feel. I hear that "Marvel Superheroes" under the SAGA system might present a fairly decent way to go about it, though.

>transgressive sorcery. E.g., a sorcerer of Dark Lady cult has to roll >Humanity vs. his or her own Will in order to bliss out during sex, and then >roll Will vs. his or her own Humanity in order "ride the wave" and turn the >sensation into sorcerous power. Of course, as sorcerers' Humanity drops, >they have to get kinkier and kinkier to boost their first roll ... I had a

Ron and I are thinking on the same wavelength, apparently...this has me scared. I was pondering this sort of scenario myself just yesterday, wondering how mature an audience would have to be to respond to something like this, as well as the demon's desires and the contract that would be set-up for such a thing.

>What I'd like to do is offer such things on a limited-time-only basis from >off the site. Maybe some will be free (e.g. just lists of new demons, >maybe the rules I talk about above) and some will cost (the >sword-and-sorcery thing).

>To sum up: I do like some ideas and suggestions included in an RPG. It >always gets me going, whether in agreement or rebellion. So bare-bones is

This is true.

>probably not the way. But whole idea of "so do you have your supplements >ready" as being the yardstick of value for an RPG ... no, no. That's just >not the road I'm taking.

It was not my intention to state it was or offer it as a direction to head, I may not have been clear enough, though. I was speaking more from a business-related standpoint, in that "If you want to make money at this, gamers will buy supplements like breakfast cereal".

>Thanks for the comments!

No problem, it's why I joined the list!